Other Articles - New to DAT?
by Patrick M Chase
[ This document was posted to DAT-Heads Digest #326 on 23 March 1997 ]
From: Patrick M Chase
Subject: New to DAT summary posting [long]
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:23:20 -0500
This is a summary post of the responses that I got related to getting into DAT. Perhaps it can help someone else make some better/more informed decisions. Everyone was VERY helpful and practically everyone that responded to me offered to spin tapes for me as well. This document is about 17 pages in length -- I hope it can help someone.
For the record, I bought a Tascam DA-20 from Jim Oade at HiFi Sounds for $725 shipped. I bought a bunch of KAO labelled tapes from Terrapin Tapes, and I'm planning on getting the 5-year aftermarket warranty from Terrapin as well.
-- Patrick Chase
This was my original post to the DAT-Heads list:
You folks must be sick of hearing these questions. ;^). I'm thinking
about going DAT so I read the FAQ, the market study, asked around,
subscribed to this group, read back-posts, and hunted through
advertisements and web pages. The result is that I'm informed but
confused! ;^)
I need a setup suitable for trading primarily Grateful Dead and Phish
soundboards. I don't do my own taping so portability isn't necessary
(but might come in handy). I figure that I can start with one deck and
to spread costs out, get another one later. Thinking about it from an
analog standpoint, I'm thinking I need a basic high-quality simple deck
for a "play" deck and a more full-featured "record" deck with better
controls and features. Cost is a factor -- I'd like to keep it as low as
possible. It seems to be an easy task to spend lots on DAT gear. With
warranties, options, cables, and tapes, it won't be hard to spend more
than I'd like. I'd like to keep it as far under $1000 at possible this
first time out.
What I've been thinking: something like a D8 for the first deck since
it's the cheapest thing out there and will get me started with the
lowest up front cash. My concern here is that with the extended warranty
and the RM-D3K option (which I'll need for digital dubbing later,
right?) I'm close to the cost of a low-end pro deck or a high end
consumer deck. Then again, the D8 gives me the option to move it around
and bring it with me and/or add mics later and take it to shows.
Then I figured I'd add a decent consumer home deck later. I've been
looking at the SONY DTC-790 and similar decks. There's alot of decks out
there with really similar part numbers and I get them all mixed up. So
far I haven't actually put my hands on a single deck.
Concerns: SCMS. If my source tapes are almost all audience and
soundboard DATs, will SCMS effect me? I mean, I'll be copying material
that shouldn't be protected in the first place, right? My concern is
that if I buy deck(s) that doesn't give me SCMS control I may have to
add a SCMS stripper later -- more $$ later rather than upfront with the
cost of the initial deck. Also, is it an issue with BOTH decks?! (i.e.,
do I need to worry about how SCMS is treated with both the play and the
record deck)?.
Cabling: What's the deal with that SONY RM-D3K option for the D8? Do I
need to worry about what each deck has for in/out in terms of coax vs.
optical? I'd just assume have two decks that support in/out digital and
analog and in a fashion that the two work together without issue (cables
and interfaces). I get the impression that there are three interfaces to
worry about: coax i/o (AES/EBU (XLR?)), optical i/o (SPDIF), and of
course analog RCA i/o. Looks like each model/brand selects the
combination of interfaces that are available. I'm worried about getting
stuck.
Samplings rates: I see the whole range listed with the usual 44, 48, and
others. I'll want the capability to go to CD-R and DVD later. I get the
feeling that specific models support specific sampling rates on specific
interfaces (i.e., perhaps one rate on the SPDIF interfaces, but maybe
three sampling rates on the analog interfaces). Again, I worry about
getting stuck with the wrong combination. Should I worry?
What low-cost configurations are you folks using? I can imagine two D8s
connected together for the cheapest (is it?) solution. I'd rather have
two decent home decks that fit into my existing audio setup. Portable is
an option due to cost (except for that Tascam model (DA-P1) which is
kinda expensive). I imagine a home deck and a D8 working OK for me.
Rack-mount stuff seems too "pro" for what I want, but maybe I'm ignorant
about it. Lastly, ya think it's better to get the better deck first?
My last concern is more a matter of convenience and etiquette. I worry
that not being able to clone for the next bunch of months may be a
problem. I do almost all my trading on the net, but I've always traded
(cassette) and never had to worry about blanks and postage. I can't
imagine not being able to make dubs for other people. How much of a
problem is this to those single deck folks out there? I assume that with
the cost of DAT, there's plenty of people out there with a single deck.
Analog is so simple in comparison! I appreciate any help you can throw
me.
I took the plunge just three weeks ago; after some research, here's what I bought:
Deck 1 (bought first): Tascam DA-20; I paid $789 for it (a little high
but I was able to buy locally in case I have a problem plus get it 90
days same as cash, which was a good thing - see below); I chose the
Tascam because 1) It has RCA ins and outs, which the other deck I
considered, the Fostex D-5, does not (although the two machines are
largely identical save for the cabling, which is XLR on the Fostex); 2)
the SCMS is defeatable. I think a DA-20 can be had for as little as
$725; check with the Oades, Terrapin or the DAT store.
I had the DA-20 for a week when I said, fuck it, let's go the full nine.
So I bought:
Deck 2: Sony D-8; paid $594 at the DAT store (they matched a price for
me, and will for you too). I did not buy any Sony options with it. I
chose the D-8 because of its price and portability, as I play in a rock
band too and wanted to roost it on the soundboard from time to time.
I also purchased a cable from Core Sound to allow the decks to clone
digitally from the D* 7-pin connector to the coaxial input on the DA-20
(I use the Sony as the play deck and the DA-20 to record to get around
SCMS problems); the cable was $30 and while it is rather flimsy looking,
it works fine, and was much cheaper than the Sony offering to use the
D-8 as the play deck, which would have run me about $200 (you gotta buy
this remote control deal with it). Sony does sell a cable which goes
coax to 7-pin, but it only works in one direction; recording on the D-8.
BTW, I stayed away from the Sony home decks because the adhere to the
SCMS deal, and also because a couple folks told me the Sony stuff is
problematic, although I heard mostly good things about the D7 and D8.
Also, for what it's worth, I bought 5-year warranties on both decks
through Terrapin ($100 each).
A response:
first of all, unless you do live taping, get a home
deck, don't bother with a portable (due to the
maintenance requirements and such).
SONY is OK (I got myself 1 SONY - but I have
4 DAT deck anywayz)...
I would highly suggest a D5 or DA-20, I have a
D5 myself and its solid...although both da-20 and
D5 have most of the same innards...?
ONly downside w/ D5 is that it has XLR I/O (analog
and digital), most others have RCA...D5 does have
an optical I/O which is good if you have 1 consumer
grade SONY...
stay away from portables until you can afford a good
one (otherwize, you'll be sorry in the long run)..unless
you need to tape live, often...
as to SCMS,...if you have 00 SCMS tapes to begin
with, then its no problems, if you have a consumer
level deck (d5 is pro level), then if you have non-00
SCMS tapes, you will have problems dubbing tapes
to another consumer deck (pro decks ignores the
SCMS).
as to the 44.1k, you gotta get a pro deck to
record analog 44.1 (CD-R), most decks can
digitally record at 44.1 (from another deck)
A response:
do not buy a portable deck for your first deck. they tend to break
down a lot more frequently -- what you want is something solid that
you can listen to your tapes on for hours and hours. i have known
folks who have had good luck with D8s but i have heard many horror
stories too.
i would strongly recommend avoiding Sony. i have owned multiple 700,
75ES, 59ES and 60ES units and had problems with all of them. some of
them spent more time in the shop than in my office playing tapes. i
actually started with a 75ES, then bought a 700, then the 75ES broke
down and Sony eventually replaced it with a 59ES, which was defective
out of the box, and replaced with another 59ES, which broke down after
six weeks, and replaced with a 60ES, which has been better but has
been to the shop a few times. the 700 broke down too and again after
multiple trips was replaced with a 59ES which broke down and was
replaced with a 60ES. i now have two 60ES decks which i only use
occasionally because i'm worried about them getting flaky.
SCMS can be a problem.
the easiest solution in my mind is to purchase the Tascam DA-20. mail
order from Terrapin through the 28th is only $750 (i think that's
accurate) including UPS ground shipping. i have two of these decks
and they are great -- they use standard consumer audio connectors so
they integrate well with my home stereo, they defeat SCMS completely,
and they are built like tanks.
i bought mine blind on the recommendation of a friend without ever
seeing one and have been completely satisfied with the purchase.
i'd recommend buying one of these and keeping it for a while and then
deciding if you want another one or a portable. think hard about
exactly why you want a portable -- if you're just trying to save a few
$$$ i'd recommend not buying one. if you think the portability could
be an advantage (i.e. hooking to car stereo, travelling, taking to a
friend's place to dub) that's a different story.
if you advertise on the net and say you want to send blanks + postage
to folks to do dubbing for you, you should have no problem getting
help. i live and work in east cambridge, if you are patient and
wanted to drop off 10 or 20 tapes or so, i'd be happy to dub them for
you.
i'd recommend looking through old posts for DA-20 and take a look at
what people have said about it.
i'd also strongly strongly strongly recommend NOT using 90M tapes in
any of this equipment. most of the problems i've had in the past
appear to be directly linked to using 90M tapes. i haven't had a deck
in the shop in two years and that's precisely when i stopped using 90M
tapes.
A response:
> Concerns: SCMS. If my source tapes are almost all audience and
> soundboard DATs, will SCMS effect me?
Unfortunately, yes. This is because there are always these nasty SCMS bits on
the tape, simply because they are required. But that's not bad per se.
Unless a pro deck is used for recording the tape (or a good SCMS stripper is
envolved) the tape is encoded for limited copy. So if you receive a tape made
from a consumer deck without SCMS stripper, it is likely to have a code 10
which prohibits further copying with consumer decks.
>I mean, I'll be copying material that
> shouldn't be protected in the first place, right? My concern is that if I
> buy deck(s) that doesn't give me SCMS control I may have to add a SCMS
> stripper later -- more $$ later rather than upfront with the cost of the
> initial deck.
Yes, you got it right.
> Also, is it an issue with BOTH decks?! (i.e., do I need to
> worry about how SCMS is treated with both the play and the record deck)?.
No, all play decks I know of always transmit faithfully what they read from
the tape. It is up to the recording deck to handle SCMS. Thus if you use a
semi-pro deck such as Fostex D-5, Tascam DA-20, DA-25, DA-30, these decks
simply ignore SCMS when recording. At least, they could be switched to do so.
So if your recording deck follows SCMS, as all Sony consumer decks do, you
have to account for a SCMS stripper.
> Cabling: What's the deal with that SONY RM-D3K option for the D8? Do I need
> to worry about what each deck has for in/out in terms of coax vs. optical?
Nothing to worry: coax vs. optical is just a question of medium; the bits are
the same. AES/EBU has different control bits, the data bits are the same.
And a good SCMS stripper also translates between all 3 formats!
> Samplings rates: I see the whole range listed with the usual 44, 48, and
> others.
All DAT decks support the same range of sampling rates, at least when copying
digitally. Some older DAT decks do not support 44.1 ksps when recording
analogue !! signal. Some older pro decks do not support 32 ksps half speed.
Newer decks usually support all formats in all modes.
CD-R need 44.1 ksps @ 16 bits per sample, nothing else. Some S/P DIF cards
for a PC support re-sampling, so again, nothing to worry. What DVD will
support is still undefined...
>
> What low-cost configurations are you folks using? I can imagine two D8s
> connected together for the cheapest (is it?) solution.
I use a Tascam DA-30 mkII as primary deck and a Sony DTC 59 ES. The Sony
deck has seen the service several times while the work horse DA-30 looks
like new. Hence, the DA-30 is my cheapest deck! It is designed to work
for 2,000 hours without service.
But it is up to you how much reliability you need. When my deck would go
for service I would have to rent a deck which would cost $ 30 a day...
So the price may have different meanings to different people.
> Analog is so simple in comparison!
Na. I produce a lot of analogue tape and have to worry a lot more about
tape quality, adjusting bias and level for each individual tape, maintenance
of the mechanics to avoid wow and flutter. Troubles with spikes in the
power...
A response:
>I don't do my own taping so portability isn't necessary.
Then I'd strongly recommend a full-sized component deck. Most portables
(including the sony's) have half-sized heads, which wear much faster
than full-size. The most popular portables are the sony d7/d8s, which
are scms-bound (more below). :-( Portables are also rumored to be less
durable overall, though many would dispute this.
>I figure that I can start with one deck and
>to spread costs out, get another one later.
Or find a local 1-deck owner to hook up with. That way you can dupe
tapes for each other to trade, and raid each other's collections for new
stuff. It will save you $600 for a second deck you won't use that
often. Make a post to the digests looking for locals, search the
digests for posts made through any of your local Internet providers
(besides aol.com!) or universities, e-mail anyone who's made a post
about taping at a local club, etc. Or convince your best friend to buy
a dat. :-)
>Thinking about it from an
>analog standpoint, I'm thinking I need a basic high-quality simple deck
>for a "play" deck and a more full-featured "record" deck with better
>controls and features.
No, dat is dat. It's all digital (little 0's and 1's), so your dupes
will be the same no matter which deck you use to play or record. The
more expensive deck may *sound* better during playback - not because it
reads or records the tape any more accurately, but because it may have a
better digital-to-analog converter (that's the chip that translates the
0's and 1's into sound - AFTER they've been read from the tape and just
before the signal goes to the analog out connectors). CD players have
the same chip, which explains why a CD may sound better on a better CD
player even though it's still the exact same data.
Any full-sized deck (and most portables, besides the sony's) will have
more record features than most home tapers will ever need.
>Concerns: SCMS. If my source tapes are almost all audience and
>soundboard DATs, will SCMS effect me?
Yes. SCMS is put on by the deck as it records, not be record company
executives. From an analog source (LPs, tapes, mikes, CD's with an
*analog* out, whatever), every SCMS-bound deck records with scms=11
(restricted - 1 copy allowed). If you want to copy from a digital source
(say, that scms=11 tape you just made) it'll bump the dupe up to scms=10
(no copying). You could always copy the dupe by running it back into
the analog ins and re-starting the scms cycle, but then you start
getting gen loss.
Enter pro decks. The pro deck must always be used as the record deck,
any deck can be the play deck. Pro decks either ignore scms or some
(like the tascam da-20 or fostex d-5) will actually *re-set* scms to 00.
Interestingly, if your deck writes scms=00, and then you copy that tape
on a consumer deck, most (including the sonys) will *not* bump up the
scms codes. It'll still be 00, even though it was recorded on an
scms-bound deck. Weird, huh? But handy.
>Cabling: I'm worried about getting stuck.
If you get stuck, it'll cost $30-100+ for a coverter box to get unstuck.
Not the end of the world, just a hassle. If possible, find out what
you'll be hooking into (a PC, your friend's deck, your likely 2nd dat
deck) before you buy.
coax i/o - you can also use a regular RCA patch cord here, even for
digital copying (they both fit the jack, but the coax is more reliable
because it has better shielding). The data is transmitted according the
SPDIF "protocol."
optical i/o - also SPDIF. Same protocal, different media.
aes/beu or whatever - dunno much about 'em, except the fostex has 'em.
>Samplings rates: I see the whole range listed with the usual 44, 48, and
>others. I'll want the capability to go to CD-R and DVD later.
Then anything you master (record) yourself should be done at 44.1.
Caution - the old sony d7s won't record at 44.1 from analog inputs (e.g.
mikes, or those master reels in your attic), but once you get it into
44.1 digital format (either by using a different deck or, yes, another
adapter!!) (namely, a $400 external a/d converter box), the d7 will dupe
it.
But you'll probably just be duping stuff already on dat. In which case
no, you don't care. Every cable supports every rate, and the record
deck automatically matches the rate of the source. So this is a
non-issue. If you do ever record from analog, practically everything
but the d7 will do it at 44.1. Including the d8.
>What low-cost configurations are you folks using?
I'd recommend a pro deck first - tascam da-20 ($750), fostex d-5 ($950),
or the otari ??? ($850ish). They're all basically the same deck,
apparently ghost-manufactured by pioneer but with slightly different
software/firmware tweaks. Then you don't have to worry about finding a
local 1-decker and still not being able to dupe because of scms.
Then down the road get a sony d7/d8, plus a cable to connect it to
whichever pro deck you buy. It's cheap, portable, and since you'll only
use it when you're making dupes (or recording in clubs, or on the
subway), you won't wear out it's little heads.
If you find a local taping partner (with a pro deck) and come to a solid
partnership agreement with him up front, you could start with the sony.
Or a cheaper home deck (sony dtc-790 - $550?). But accept the fact that
you'll have to by an scms-stripper if your partner ever buys a 2nd deck
for himself and ditches you.
>I can't imagine not being able to make dubs for other people.
A few people work blanks & postage like this: You've got one deck, I've
got two. Send me your original tape (!) + a blank, plus return postage
and mailer. I'll copy your tape onto one of my personal blanks for me,
copy whatever show you wanted onto your blank, and return your (former)
blank and original. It's a regular 1:1 trade, just you pay all those
postage and I do all the taping. Most people are cool about this if
they know you're just starting out (except the guys who are anal about
tape head wear), and I've only heard of one creep who actually kept the
original and blank he was sent.
A response:
You mentioned a Sony D8 and 790. I bought a Sony 690 in the summer of 94. I
sold it a year and a half later for $275 and will be happy to never see it
again. It would secretly sneak dropouts and errors onto recordings. I'm sure
the 790 is improved, and Sony tried to make it better for me, but be wary. I
think the 60ES is the cheapest Sony that's reliable.
I have no experiece with the D8, but I would get it for portability rather
than cost. You need to buy _something_ to connect it digitally, and that
will drive up the cost. If the destination deck is the 790 you'll also need
a scms remover ($200) or do analog transfers which people can sometimes
detect. For example if they know your decks are not pro and you send them
tapes that are all scms 01 they'll know.
You could get a computer IO card that strips scms, then use it for cdr down
the road(I did this). On a PC the ZA2 is $350, the cheapest MAC card is $600
or $800 (can't remember).
You could get a pro deck for the destination and not have to worry about scms.
After cursing the 690 for 2 years I eventually bought a pair of Fostex D5's.
Ahh, I haven't had a single problem since. Keep in mind that I'm much better
at cleaning heads than I was. There are other comparable decks to the D5,
make up your own mind I guess, but consider one pro deck.
Yes you do have to worry about the connectors. Make sure the two decks can
be linked in the direction you need.
The D8 will record at 44.1. If you eventually get a CDR you should have some
software that will resample the file after it's on the computer. It's not
all that important how it starts out, and you don't want the decks
resampling it. (unless you have expensive decks)
A response:
I'm gonna buy a 2nd deck sometime, too. BTW, you might also consider
also the tascam da-p1 pro deck ($1250). It costs wayyyy more, but it's
portable, scms-free, larger than walkman-sized so tascam was able to use
full-sized heads, and has lots of goodies for use w/mikes (nice mic
preamp, phantom power, good a/d converter, etc.). With a cheapo home
deck ($550) you're up to $1,800, vs. $1500 for two da-20's or $1300 for
1 da-20 & 1 sony (portable or home). Just use the cheapo home deck as
your normal listening deck, and run it into the ground.
Or you could buy that kick-ass fostex pd-4. Only $4500 at the dat
store!!! :-) A nice deck, though.
A response:
I was in your position a few months ago. I looked at many different
decks in the sub $1000 range, and I ended up with a used Tascam DA-30
(not MK-II) for $550. For that price, it can't be beat - no SCMS, many
I/O options, and no problems in six months now. If you're not worried
about portability, I'd get another one for a second deck. I needed a D7
to tape shows with, so I got that instead... With all the accessories,
the D7 cost more than the Tascam, and I expect the Tascam to way outlive
the D7.
A response:
The Fostex has a few advantages, error meter (big one), reliablity, and a
better service department. Disadvantages are cost ($850 I think) and
balanced analog IO. Also the Tascam is Black and The Fostex is white (yuk).
>This worries me -- mostly since I don't know what the second deck will
>be yet.
Let the first deck determine the second. ;)
>every trader out there goes CD-R
It takes 3cd's to dupe a show. Until the blanks are $2 each you're not going
to see a lot of trading.
>I think that CD-R is going to be passed by DVD in the end anyway.
It'll be passed by something, I'm not sure it'll be DVD. If DVD has a
bulletproof copy protection scheme no one will be using it. I think it'll be
quite a while before DAT goes away as a trading and taping medium. I use CDR
for archiving and convenient listening. In the past 9 months I've only
copied 5 shows to CDR, it's a slow process.
A response:
D8 is an OK machine as I understand it, I've got a DAP1
and love it...understand your requirements, if that is
what you will use a D8 for, then that would be an
appropriate solution for it...now or later...for now!
DA-20 is a good machine, you can get it for $725
including shipping from Hi-Fi Sales ask for Jim Oade...
tell him that I sent you...:-) {pmc's note: EVERYONE said this same thing! 8^D}
as to your confusion, no, in general there are three
types of digital I/O form factors (mostly the signal
packets don't change, just some electrical differences
and perhaps some other minor differences you
don't need to worry about right now).
1) Optical - special optical cable...optical
to optical only
2) SP/DIF - The form factor is EXACTLY the
same as RCA jack...you don't have
to buy a special cable!
3) AES/BU - XLR type of cable...also slightly
different signaling (may not get part
of incoming digital packets - 147 bit
packets that the dat data come in are
called packets). But all the data
(music) gets through!
4) you can get RCA Input or Output to XLR Ouput
or Input conversion cables...
5) you can get D8 <> coax cables as well as XLR
cables as well as you might consider an
optical, if you have a deck that supports
it (see below for DA-20 low-down)
DA-20 has only RCA! That works with a SONY (with that
dumb (not for SONY - they get more $'s) adaptor cable)
that will work fine! D5 has digital optical and XLR connections
and XLR analog connections (just like a pro/mixer/monitor
board connection).
Now the analog out may be RCA or it may be XLR, in the
D5's case, both digital and analog I/O are profesional (XLR)
DA20 does have the ability to defeat SCMS...
Once you get 00 Tape, then all clones are 00 SCMS as well!
most pro decks ignore incoming SCMS and also write 00
SCMS...thus making it a master!
all/most decks run @ 44.1khz, so that isn't really a problem!
A response:
That's what I like to hear. As for the connectors, what's on the rear
panel? Obviously RCA stero I/O, but what digital connectors? I'm still
unclear as to what's what in terms of optical, coaxial, and whatever
it is that SONY is providing (I keep hearing "7-pin").
coaxial digital. the SONY portables use a proprietary 7 pin connector
which you can buy SONY cables for to provide coaxial in or optical in
and out. if you go this route, i'd recommend buying something from
Len Moskowitz at Core Sound instead, he is cheaper and makes more
useful gear.
May I ask, what to get with it? Extended warranty? cables, etc.
you won't need anything else. i'd buy an extended warranty.
I'm thinking more long term. I'm one of those traders that likes to
"spread" the tunes and trade and make copies and hand out free tapes
to people and friends. I feel a little funny about being a "mooch" for
what could be many many months [...]
well, you'll want two decks sooner rather than later, then, but if you
feel guilty, you could sign up to do D>A and make cassettes for
friends. that's how i started -- presumably you've got good cassette
decks and there are a LOT of folks out there who would love to get
nice D>A from your DAT deck rather than getting some crufty A>A from
some guy using a Technics double deck in 2x mode with Dolby on :-)
[...]
>i'd also strongly strongly strongly recommend NOT using 90M tapes in
What's the drawback? What length do you use?
from what i recall on the subject, DAT decks determine the appropriate
amount of tension based on what they believe is the current position
of the tape. if the tension is incorrect, either the tape ends up too
far from the heads or it ends up being pushed too hard against the
head, causing shedding. both will cause dropouts. the tension is
looked up in a table based on the type of the tape currently loaded.
this means that a deck must specifically support 90M tapes. there are
very few decks which support 90M tapes -- i think the only one i have
heard of is a pro deck costing $1500+.
when i used 90M tapes i found that dubs i was making would often have
dropouts in them, and that tapes i had would sometimes play fine and
other times would have dropouts.
i use 60M tapes -- 120 minutes in length -- exclusively now.
this is more or less a religious issue with people. those who have
had no problems with 90M tapes say the rest of us are crazy. i
wouldn't let a 90M tape anywhere near my equipment these days given
that things were fine in my early days, then i had a couple of
nightmarish years when i was using 90M tapes, and the last couple of
years have been really quiet.
tapes are (relatively) cheap -- the extra cost of using 60M isn't all
that great -- especially when compared to the cost of the decks and
time spent with the deck in the shop, cleaning and redubbing stuff.
[...]i've got two DA-20s and a Sony 60ES [...]
A response:
I just went thru the same ordeal, and wound up with a Tascam DA-20.
It's an awesome unit with all the feature you need and can be had for
about $780.
I'd stay away from the D7/D8...they have half size heads and limited
features as compared to the home pro decks. Try call Jim Oade @ Hi-Fi
sales...he's very helpful.
A response:
I'm writing you in reply to your posts to DAT-heads regarding your possible
jump to DAT. I made this same change over the last six months, and I'll try
to summarize what I did and learned.
You said you will be doing a fair amount of trading. SCMS is definitely an
issue. I don't particularly want a tape that I can't clone. Thus, I suggest
your first deck be an SCMS free home deck. It is only necessary that one of
your decks be able to defeat SCMS. That deck will always be your record deck.
I chose the Tascam DA-20. I bought mine from HiFi Sales (Oade brothers in
Georgia). I think they will ship one to your door for about $720 right now.
I selected this deck because it's a "pro" deck, with the ability to completely
ignore SCMS. A simple procedure, documented in the manual, allows one to set
the deck into SCMS ignore mode, or back to using SCMS (if you really wanted to
do this). The setting is persistant, so once you set the deck to ignore SCMS,
it retains that setting through power cycles. Set it and forget it. The
DA-20 is also very home stereo friendly. It uses standard RCA connectors for
analog in and out, with levels appropriate for connecting to consumer stereos.
The Fostex D-5, which has what is rumored to be an identical transport and
panel, has different connectors (XLR) which means adapters will be needed to
connect to your basic home stereo receiver. The Fostex also costs a hundred
to two hundred more. The Tascam has coaxial connectors for digital in and
out. I use these to connect to my second DAT deck, using one of those gold
connectored, low loss, "our finest" video dubbing cable purchased for about
$10 from the nearby strip mall consumer electronics retailer. "You've got
questions? We've got blank stares!" I don't mention DAT or S/PDIF or digital
connections when I go in there. It's a waste of time, since they have no
knowlege of the subject. Anyway. the cable was about $10. The DA-20 has
worked flawlessly for me. And yes, it will do 44.1khz recording. I move
material to my computer using a special I/O card to edit, clean up, adjust
volume levels, and occasionally burn to CD-R, and having that recording rate
is important. The connection to my computer is also via the coax s/pdif. I
run music into and out of the deck using this setup, and I'm very happy with
the way it works. Also, the DA-20 comes with rack mount ears, which come off
with the removal of four screws, leaving a deck that's quite deep, but
precisely the same width (and color) as the rest of my home stereo components.
Now, like you I couldn't spring for a second deck right away. What I did to
start building a DAT tape collection was to sign up on some tape trees as a
D>A branch. This is an unpopular slot, since once you start getting DATs to
listen to, you don't really want to hear most of the "A+ crispy" cassettes you
used to get in trade. So you do B&P for your children, and hope for two
things. First, that you will get together enough scratch to get that second
deck, and start cloning. No flips to worry about, no levels to set. Second,
the really primo first gen analog tapes you spin for your children will
convince them that DAT is the way to go, and some of them will convert. Then
you'll have some trading partners that you already have a relationship with.
When it came time to buy the second DAT deck, I thought about getting another
DA-20. That would work out great except I wanted the ability to do A/D
conversion direct to the computer, and also the ability to pull data from my
CD player, which has an optical digital interface. I ended up buying the Sony
DTC-60ES. The ES series has a three year warranty instead of 90 days for the
straight consumer stuff. The 60ES has SCMS, which is why I rejected it as a
first deck. It's also an easy hundred more than the Tascam. But it has both
coaxial s/pdif (for direct cloning to the DA-20) and optical i/o (for reading
the CD player digtally). It also has the very nice Super Bit Mapper A/D
circuitry, which it is said makes nicer recordings of analog sources. It has
consumer RCA analog i/o, so it too goes well with the home stereo receiver.
The A/D on the 60ES can be run without a tape in the transport. So I use it
to digitize analog tapes that need work, sending the music in digital form to
the computer. Then I use the computer to remove tape hiss, adjust the volume
levels, etc. Then send it back out digitally to either the Tascam if I want a
DAT of the music, or to my analog cassette decks if I just want a nice tape.
I also own a D8. Yeah, I know. I really did go whole hog on this. I use the
D8 almost exclusively for taping. They are fragile, and the heads in a D8 are
smaller than normal. I don't want to put the D8 through the wear and tear of
a daily playback deck. I copy the DATs down to good metal cassette tape for
use in the car or a far less expensive cassette walkman. The D8 is essential
for me for taping shows, but if I didn't tape, I wouldn't have bought it.
So, I would suggest you get an SCMS-free home deck as your first. The
outboard SCMS strippers are an extra $100-$200, plus a couple more connectors
and cables in your signal path. If you aren't going to do a lot of live
taping, get another home deck with all the features you want for your second
deck. I am very happy with the setup I have. Remember that warrantees are
very important. I bought an aftermarket warranty for the DA-20 ($99 for 5
years) and did not get one for the 60ES since it comes with a 3 year to start
with. The D8 is cute, and I love it for live taping, particularly stealth.
But you're going to need an extra warranty with it. You're not going to save
much over a DA-20, and you'll get a much more fragile deck with SCMS.
I buy DAT tapes from both Terrapin and Art Munson. Both have given me good
service. I try to stick with 60m tapes, since there are far fewer reported
problems with them, and both deck manufacturers recommend using 60m tapes.
I've used 90m in the Tascam without problems, but I don't want to push my
luck. I'm paying about $4.35 for labelled 60m tapes.
Until you get that second deck, work the D>A angle on trees, and make contact
with other one deck folks. Then twice a year you can set up a cloning party.
Everyone meets somewhere, bringing their deck, cables, masters, and a pile of
blanks. Then you set up a monster six deck chain, all digital, and clone as
much stuff as you can in the time you've got.
I have no business relationship with any of the companies I mentioned, and I
know you'll get a variety of opinions in response to your post. Enjoy the new
DAT world. I'll even do a couple B&P shows for you when you get that first
deck. Not that I have a huge tape list, but I know that with a new deck, you
just _gotta_ have something to listen to in it!
A response:
Once you get a couple of tapes you can send one of your tapes to the guy you
trade with and he spins that for himself. You would probably pay postage both
ways, since he has to do all of the dubbing. Some guys have had great success
building their collections that way.
A response:
1) Don't buy the D8 unless you are going to do MAINLY live recording. It's
not that good a deck, and you over pay for portability. It also will not
last as long as a home deck.
2) Don't buy a 790. They are a piece of junk. Sony hasn't made a good
consumer deck since the 75ES.
3) Buy the Sony 2600. They are closing them out and they can be purchased
for under $1100 (they were about $1400 a couple months ago). They defeat
SCMS, and are very reliable.
Call Paul Plotnick at Pro Digital (610) 353-2400. He's got some of them. I
am not affiliated with Paul, just a satisfied customer.
A response:
$800 Fostex D5. XLR and optical, no RCA. defaults SCMS=00
call Full Compass, 1-800-356-5844, ask for Kas, ext.1177 [...]
A response:
I don't have alot to say about deck selection because I'm still out on
that. I would put less emphasis on 'cheap' and get the pricier of the two
decks first, so that I would be done with the most brutal part of the pain
and then the second deck would be a easy purchase.
I have a Pana 3800 and I love it and it's a very durable deck, but
expensive. From what I've heard, tech support is ok, but nothing to brag
about. I don't expect to need it, though. It has all that I want, but
it's hard to cable. It comes with optical, coax, and XLR, but you need
more equipment to go to your stereo. It ignores scms, but changing scms
means that you have to buy a second professional deck.
Anyway, I hear that the fostex D5 is reliable and semiprofessional and has
no problem with scms. It's around 8-900 and a good value. Some people say
that it has problems with 90m tapes. I don't know; you may want to ask on
dat-heads.
A response:
I'm fairly new myself, I just jumped into the world of DAT about 3 months
ago. Fortunately, you'll only be confused for a little while... :)
Someone else may have already answered these questions, but if not, here
goes:
>With warranties, options, cables, and tapes, it won't be hard to spend
more
>than I'd like. I'd like to keep it as far under $1000 at possible this
>first time out.
I ended up spending about $1800 for a home deck, a portable deck, a 5
year warranty on the portable, mics and cables... and I shopped around
pretty carefully too.
>My concern here is that with the extended warranty
>and the RM-D3K option (which I'll need for digital dubbing later,
>right?)
Not necessarily - I clone from a D8 to a Fostex D-5 and use a homemade
7-pin output to XLR input cable that I bought for $30 from Coresound. If
you buy a home deck w/ a RCA digital input (like the Tascam DA-20), you
can also buy a 7-pin to RCA homemade cable for the same price. I'm sure
there are other sources for such homemade cables, or you could probably
build one yourself, but I'm only familiar with CoreSounds' cables.
>Concerns: SCMS. If my source tapes are almost all audience and
>soundboard DATs, will SCMS effect me? I mean, I'll be copying material
>that shouldn't be protected in the first place, right?
Not necessarily, to be on the safe side you'll probably want equipment
that circumvents SCMS. Someone else can probably explain the ins and
outs of SCMS to you better than I can, but if an audience or sbd
recording is cloned twice on decks that don't strip SCMS, you won't be
able to clone yours.
>My concern is that if I buy deck(s) that doesn't give me SCMS control I
may >have to add a SCMS stripper later -- more $$ later rather than
upfront with >the cost of the initial deck. Also, is it an issue with
BOTH decks?! (i.e.,
>do I need to worry about how SCMS is treated with both the play and the
>record deck)?.
No - the record deck is what writes SCMS, the play deck is irrelavant.
If you buy two decks and always use one to record and the other to play,
you only need to worry about the record deck.
>I'd just assume have two decks that support in/out digital and
>analog and in a fashion that the two work together without issue (cables
>and interfaces). I get the impression that there are three interfaces to
>worry about: coax i/o (AES/EBU (XLR?)), optical i/o (SPDIF), and of
>course analog RCA i/o. Looks like each model/brand selects the
>combination of interfaces that are available. I'm worried about getting
>stuck.
With coax digital i/o - different decks have different types of
connectors. Some have RCA i/o's (the Tascam DA-20, for example), others
have XLR i/o's (the Fostex D-5, for example). XLR to RCA cables aren't
very expensive, no more than $10 or $12.
>Samplings rates: I see the whole range listed with the usual 44, 48, and
>others. I'll want the capability to go to CD-R and DVD later. I get the
>feeling that specific models support specific sampling rates on specific
>interfaces (i.e., perhaps one rate on the SPDIF interfaces, but maybe
>three sampling rates on the analog interfaces). Again, I worry about
>getting stuck with the wrong combination. Should I worry?
As far as I know, most decks support 44.1 and 48 in both digital and
analog, and most support 32 (LP mode) in digital and analog.
>What low-cost configurations are you folks using?
I can't really tell you what the best thing to use is, since I'm not too
familiar with the consumer home decks. I clone DATs from a D8 to a
Fostex D-5 using a 7-pin to XLR cable, and clone CDs from my CD player
(which has an optical digital output) to the D5's optical digital input.
Then I connect my D5 to my receiver using 2 XLR male to RCA male cables,
and 2 XLR female to RCA male cables.
A response:
Pat: It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what to do. The
fiber optic or "Toslink" (SPDIF format) connections are not considered
as good as the coax RCA (also SPDIF format) connections. (I haven't had
any problems myself at all). The best is considered to be the XLR
(AES/EBU format) which is totally professional - it doesn't support SCMS
copy protection at all so that is not a consern. All you need is one
"professional" deck (i.e. no SCMS) to make clones and that must be the
one used for recording. My understanding is that the Sony full size
deck is more heavy duty than the portable (better mechanism, heads
etc.). I know for a fact that a pro deck like the Fostex D-5 is MUCH
more heavy duty than the cheaper consumer models - its just much more
for continual use and not as fragile. Also the coax (RCA) and XLR
inputs are supposedly incompatible formats - except that the Fostex D-5
which has XLR (and fiber optic too) inputs will auto switch to accept a
SPDIF signal on input. You can get cables that are RCA (out) on one end
and XLR (in)on the other - but my understanding is that will only work
for the Fostex D-5. I'm not a total expert on this by any means - and
wouldn't want to stake my life that the info I've given is perfectly
correct, but I hope I've helped. I have a Sony DTC-670 (consumer, full
size) and a Fostex D-5 (pro, full size) which I got a few months ago.
[...]
P.S. The Tascam DA-20 and the Fostex D-5 come in the same box (different
colors) with the same layout of buttons, but have somewhat different
controls, different electronics, and different connections in the back.
Believe it or not they are both actually manufactured by Pioneer!!!
A response:
[...]
> Thanks for the note. Lots of people are recommending the D5 and the
> Tascam DA-20 ($750).
[...]
i've since heard a D5 is $949. it's still better than a DA-20, (IMO),
but $200 isn't probably worth it.
full compass has both decks. i doubt you'll find a cheaper better
company.[...]
A response:
> >and I ended up with a used Tascam DA-30 (not MK-II) for $550.
>
> That's interesting. I haven't heard about that one yet. A lot of
> people are recommending the DA-20 ($750). What's the difference
> between these decks (besides $200)?
>
> The other recommendation has been for the Fostex D5.
Check out the market posting. The DA-30 is the same as the DA-30 MK-II,
except it lacks a shuttle wheel (plus a few other features). Actually,
I was looking the other day, and it turns out that the DA-30 obeys SCMS
on its coax inputs, but not on the balanced ins. I've never run into
anything yet, though.
DA-30's ran for $1000-1100 a few years ago, and then the MK-II came out
and prices just dropped, I guess. Lots of studios have them lying
around, and I see one at just about every live show I go to (either that
or a Panasonic SV-3700). The DA-30 is a step up from the DA-20, but it
is quite a bit older, so you can get it cheaper. You don't have to
worry about age if you can find one with really low hours like I did.
Originally, I was going to get a DA-20 because I thought a DA-30 would
be out of my price range, but then I saw the ad for $550 and I jumped at
it.
If you're going to get a new deck, you probably won't find a DA-30, so
the DA-20 (or D5) is probably your best bet. On the other hand, if you
would go for a used deck, the DA-30 is probably the best bargain out
there.
A response:
> The moral of the story here, is to buy a deck that can set SCMS to
> 00. The thing that bothers me is the fact that it appears that the
> consumer DAT deck is typically FORCING SCMS to 10 even though the
> material should not be copyprotected in the first place. Sheeesh. What
> world. ;^)
Unfortunately the interpretation of the copy protection bits depend on the
so called category code that is also transmitted. If the category code is
DAT, DCC, MD or CD and the copy protections bits are 00 (unlimited copying)
all consumer DAT decks must write 00 on the tape. If the category code is
A/D converter the consumer deck unfortunately write 11 (one more digital
generation allowed) while my computer send category General causing the
Sony deck to write 10. If the category code is Professional or undefined
a consumer deck should refuse to record.
> I'm not so much concerned about the differences between the various
> media as I am which one is supplied on each deck. In other words, if I
> buy a Tascam DA-20 and a SONY D8, can I plug the two together
> digitally?
I have neither of these, as far as I know, the DA-20 has only coaxial I/O,
then the D8 should have coaxial output too. If it has optical only you may
replace the optical transmitter by a 75 Ohm resistor in series with a 1 nF
condensor and a RCA jack. This is sufficient for home use. Well, to follow
the S/P DIF rules, you should not use the resistor/condensor network but a
pulse transformer and an insulated RCA jacket.
> If one of those decks offers an optical I/O and other
> offers a coaxial I/O, then I'm stuck, right?
If you don't have a soldering iron at hand, yes.
> And when people talk
> about RCA connectors, they're talking analog, right?!
Both analogue and digital use the same type connectors. However, you should
not interchange them. Analogue requires two connectors to record and two to
playback, one for each stereo channel. S/P DIF (digital I/O) requires one
connector for both channels.
> With the advice I've been getting so far, two DA-20s looks like the
> right move. That means I won't need a SCMS stripper and therefore
> won't have any translation capability. Right?
Yes. You may as well think of the Fostex D-5 which is said to be the same
deck as the TASCAM but it has optical i/o as addition. If I'm not mistaken
the D-5 doesn't have RCA connector for digital i/o but an XLR connector to
support the professional AES/EBU format but it accepts the S/P DIF format
without modification. Thus you may need a cable that has a RCA plug on one
side and a XLR plug on the other (pin 1 and 2 interconnected).
> Lots of people are talking that way about SONY. People are steering me
> toward the DA-20 which can be had for only $100 more than a D8.
So check for the Fostex D-5 as well...
A response:
: [...] I'm inclided right now
: toward buying two decks, but it sounds like I'll be OK short-term with
: one deck.
The way I looked at it, it is inevitable that the money would be spent. I figured
it was worth it to bite the bullet and not go through the agony of having 1 deck.
Now hopefully they both last for 5 years....
A response:
>Can you tell me more about the error meter? What's the benefit and
>what's the risk on not having one?
If someone sends me a tape I can tell if their heads were dirty, even if the
errors are correctable. The same goes for tapes I make for others. If I hear
static there is a chance that I'll be able to tell if it was added with the
last clone.
>"Balanced analog IO". That sounds to me like they removed the Left/Right
>analog controls and made it a combined L/R gain knob. Is that what you
>mean?
Nope. It means there is a 3 wire (pro) plug for sending audio to (from) your
receiver so you can play it. Your receiver probably has rca (2 wires,
consumer). I bought a $15 cable that converts so I can play things, and the
Fostex has a switch so I can use consumer levels instead of the higher pro
levels.
A response:
my dat setup consists of a portable deck (denon dtr-80p) and a sony
home deck (dtc-690). it's about the cheapest type of setup and it
works just as well as a $5,000 setup except for scms. if you're
trading tapes around on the internet, they'll probably be scms=00,
which means you'll be able to make unlimited copies of them, but
if you record a live show with a consumer deck (i.e. d8), it will
let you make dubs of that tape, but not dubs of the dub. (pardon
me if you already know this). when i come across this problem,
i just dub through the analog ports. it's not an exact "clone,"
but i've NEVER been able to tell the difference, and blind tests
have produced mixed results (some people actually prefer the sound
of a 20th gen analog dub).
the d8 can record at 44.1, which is nice. you don't necessarily
need the rm3dk or whatever it is to do digital dubs. sony sells
a cable that plugs into the 7-pin port that provide coaxial digital
out, and they also sell one that provides optical in and out. len
moskowitz of core sound sells a 7-pin to coax in and out cable as
well as a bunch of other cables. i wouldn't be surprised if he's
already made a sales pitch to you... ;-)
as far as trading tapes vs. blanks/postage, i've seen quite a few
newbies have pretty good success in getting people to help them.
when i'm not swamped with trades, i often offer to help a new
dat-head get started with a batch of 10 tapes. once you get a
little collection, you might offer to mail your originals to
someone along with your blanks, so they can dub your tapes for
themselves and get something in return.
i highly recommend a portable deck even if you don't plan on
taping shows right away. inevitably there will be a small band
that you'll want to tape who'll give you a kind soundboard patch.
as far as scms strippers go, you can get one for ~$120 from a guy
on this list named dan vincent. if you ever get a pro deck and no
longer need it, i'm sure you could sell it for at least as much as
you paid for it in the first place. [...]
A response:
it seems that most people find the scms defeatibility on pro
decks such as the tascam or fostex a big deal. me, i'd rather
pay $450 for a close-out sony dtc-790 and spend the extra $400
on blanks and a $120 scms defeater. if you take care of your
equipment, your setup should be just as good (give or take a
small difference in d/a and a/d quality).
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