The VH Trade Site Forums Archives

[Anonymous]

Wondering if in the future we could do trees as data FLAC files. That way we don't have to worry about bad burns, you can verify the files empirically and we'll be sure that errors don't get introduced. This is a much better way of doing things than generating CDR's where who knows what happened.

This is especially because Bondage Records is coming out with that new release including London 6/1/78 SB which they downloaded off easytree. Since they have a propensity to fuck things up, it'd be a good idea to have someone rip the silver into FLAC files and spread it that way so we can be sure if there are any errors, it's on the silver.

[frankm]

I use to avoid trading SHN or FLAC. Sure I'd download it but I almost always traded Audio. But I have changed my way of thinking and now I'd prefer trading SHN or FLAC over Audio. It is the exact reason you specified. Burned in bad trades too many times. I agree completely with you. The only issue I can see is the LARGE number of traders who have no clue about lossless compression and I can see some people signing up for a Tree or Trade or whatever and not realise what they are getting and then getting upset. Personally I think people should get educated and learn the benefits of these formats but I think you have to be prepare for these ignorant people (and I'm not using ignorant as a slam just using the word to say they lack knowledge). If we try to educate them and they refuse then I guess ... screw 'em. I think FLAC and SHN as distribution works well for Vines whereby people send on the original disc after burning their own copy. People should get into the habit of backing up and archiving their collection which is one way to approach the whole lossless distribution. I don't know, I'm just throwing out random thoughts at this point.

Lou, I'm onboard with ya which ever way you go.

[Anonymous]

Maybe if there are some still averse to .shn/.flac, different things can be run. Like there can be an audio CD group and then there can be a .flac group. The .flac group can just be a vine because with .flac files, they can be burned endlessly without any loss or risk of damage, so long as each person verifies the CD before sending it out.

[atomicpunk5151]

Lou,

Still pretty new to FLAC, but I have a question for you. What do you think is the best program for converting FLAC to WAVE and then burning onto a cd for use in the stereo. Are there several programs that are good for this? Also what is the best way to avoid getting gaps in between songs.

Sorry if these are dumb questions or a little off topic, just trying to get info if the Trees move to the FLAC format.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

I use FLAC Frontend (google and I'm sure you'll find it).

What you should do anytime you download a show from Bit Torrent is archive the flacs either on CD or DVD and then make your personal copy. But when you go to trade, trade the .flac files. It will ensure every time that the recipient will get an identical copy. No more spot-checking the CD or wondering if there's any errors, you just verify with FLAC Frontend and once it verifies, you're good to go.

[ron]

frankm wrote: The only issue I can see is the LARGE number of traders who have no clue about lossless compression and I can see some people signing up for a Tree or Trade or whatever and not realise what they are getting and then getting upset.

Maybe we could come up with something that can be put onto the disc that will act as a tutorial, as well as the decoding software that'll be needed. I don't think this stuff will take up much space. We could even add some form of an "autorun" that'll fire automatically when the disc is inserted. We'd have to come up with the software and instructions for both Mac and Windows, but I think it's easily do-able. Of course I fully support the distribution of the FLAC files instead of audio, just so we can get rid of all the bad burns.

[Anonymous]

Great topic with some good suggestions... Scott, this thread should be put in with the archived topics so no one loses track of it later down the road.

[splatrock]

Great idea and I'm all for it. The argument that flac is too difficult or hard to learn is weak. Consider this, do you really trust that person to properly configure hardware / software to burn audio cd's. Probably not, yet this is what is happening at present. At least with a flac file, you know if the copy is good.

[BillBee]

I had to delete and edit this a few times to get my thoughts correct :)

This excludes dvd audio btw.

FLAC/SHN -> are these not just compression methods used to shrink the ripped cd audio (wav) to save server space for online trading? The audio show ripped still depends on the original's quality (yes even a flac could start as mp3 sourced) which technically has no generation loss as it is digitally copied.

The md5 file (for shns) are just a check sum to compare the dl'ed files extraction - yet can change each time someone else compresses a different copy.

In the end you still have a wav file you have to burn via EAC. So it would be like trading the cue sheet and image file from EAC, right?

So I don't appear too "ignorant" the reasons for snail mail trading FLAC/SHN are:

1) People cannot burn via EAC correctly.

2) You don't trust people to burn via EAC correctly and would rather burn the file yourself.

3) ?

For online trading I agree that shn/flac is the way to go. But alas on dialup rarely bother to dl a show (though I have takes about a week btw).

Just asking, no harm to the cause intended as I stated before I just snail mail trade and haven't really ran into a problem. Even new traders were willing to correct their bad burns after a lil help (as no-one took the time to help them before).

So how far out in left field am I?

Ignorant Bill

[Jason C]

I don't really know what you need to do to set up torrents but why don't we just torrent the shows on this site? Wouldn't that be the easiest/fastest way to distribute shows?

[frankm]

Jason C wrote: I don't really know what you need to do to set up torrents but why don't we just torrent the shows on this site? Wouldn't that be the easiest/fastest way to distribute shows?

Yes but that is really only for those with broadband.

BillBee wrote: Ignorant Bill

Bill, you have some good points there. I have mostly seen FLAC/SHN used as Vines. The original disc is sent and the person who receives it burns their own copy and then forwards the original discs and so forth. Each time I have received a FLAC/SHN Vine I have copied the FLAC/SHN and burned as back-up for myself and then burned the Audio disc to listen to and then sent on the original discs. But FLAC/SHN distribution can be done in a variety of ways. It is not just for downloading. Sometimes you trust the person who burned the show and sometimes you don't. I have had times where a bad burn has gone unnoticed for a long time.

[GGirl]

I am a fan of FLAC/SHN trading. As for using these types of formats for trees...it is pretty simple. I use to set up trees on the BC boards this way all the time.

When you run the sign up portion of the tree you either have the branches only sign up if they are willing to accept SHN or FLAC discs. The other option is to have branches for audio/WAV format as well as SHN/FLAC both. However, in either case the branches must agree to burn both WAV and SHN/FLAC discs for their leafs depending on what is requested.

Granted it will make setting up the tree structure a bit more challenging but it is a way to offer different formats and hopefully introduce others to lossless compression.

Just a thought...

[Anonymous]

I would run two separate things. One would be the audio CD group and the other the FLAC group. The people who want the show on FLAC files and not risk any errors can have it that way, the people who don't have the time or interest can get an audio CD copy. This has been done with Led Zeppelin shows in the past.

Obviously my choice is FLAC, but I understand that people want to hear the show and don't want to spend any time on it. But for those people--do understand that it's all in the best interest of the community to trade FLAC.

[Anonymous]

I think it's great that this is being discussed! It's about time! ;)

And for trees, the branches/root would be required to distribute only the FLAC/SHN files. While only the leafs would have the option of regular CD-Rs if they don't want to deal with the raw files.

The hardest part of this is getting the information out. Without that, I can see people making a lot of stupid mistakes or not wanting to take part of this. I can offer to do a write-up for Mac users. (That's what I know.)

It's also a good idea to post the checksums/fingerprints in the tree/vine announcement post. A sanity check for those receiving copies.

Just some ideas!

-- Mike

[Anonymous]

FLAC / SHN trading is the way to go if you want to avoid issues with bad burns and screwed up copies. The Rush community switched over to SHN trading about 3 years ago and it really did wonders for reducing bad copies (and the annoying resultant questions) to an almost non-existant level. I'm sure Frank can vouch for me on that.

However, I do have a few other suggestions to help you the newer VH/DLR traders:

1. With each distribution include a "Readme-1st.txt" or "instructions.txt" file on each disc that explains the basics of SHN/FLAC including instructions and links to software (ie, etree.org).

2. Most importantly you wil need to post the master md5 checksum somewhere that is permanent and safe. That prevents bad copies circulating with different checsums. For example, on the Digital Rush Experience website we host the reviews for all the (known to us) shows. We also include the master checksums in the reviews. Since I am the only person with access to the database, there is no risk of tampering (accidental or purposeful). Anyone, day or night, can verify their files against the checksum on the DRE website.

I'm not familiar with the individual(s) running the VHboots site or similar sites on whether they would be willing to add the checksum information to the review listings. I know all the VH/DLR works I've done have had those checksums included on disc.

3. I addition to FLAC/SHN trading with checksums, one can also apply the same techniques to trading DVD's. An application like MD5Summer will allow users to make checksums for all the files that comprise a DVD-Video (or DVD-Audio). Given the relative infancy of DVD trading versus CD audio trading, the potential for screw ups with dvd's is considerably higher. That is why I've been including md5 checksums in all my dvd-video and dvd-audio projects over the last couple years.

4. Just be patient, committed and firm in your support of lossless encoding and checksum schemas for trading. It is just going to take time to convert people over to this way of thinking. Some are already exposed to it through online trading hubs and bit torrents, so it should only get easier over time. Quality always takes more time and more work than the "wing and a prayer" method.