The VH Trade Site Forums Archives

[Scott Roberts]

Frequently Asked Questions. Most general questions about trading are answered here.

Now updated for 2003! Everyone from the novice to the advanced collector can benefit from these FAQ's. If you are new to this, please take the time to read through these carefully; they can help you and others (especially those persons you contact to trade with) in the long run.
If you still have any questions, suggestions, additions to the FAQ's, or corrections, please don't hesitate to e-mail me. Without your valuable input, this FAQ wouldn't be what it is today.

1. What exactly is DVD-R/CD-R/tape trading?
2. What's the difference between selling/purchasing boots and trading them? Are both illegal?
3. I'm a newbie. How can I start a collection when I have nothing to trade?
4. Can I trade DAT's, VHS videos, etc. be traded just like CD-Rs and DVD-Rs?
5. Can I trade audio CD-Rs for DVD-Rs, and vice versa?
6. Who should pay for shipping in a deal?
7. What's the best way to package and mail CD-Rs/tapes?
8. What are CD-R/DVD-R trees? What are Vines? What are Weeds? How can I join them?
9. How do I meet other traders? How can I view their boot lists?
10. How can I let others know about my list?
11. Are there traders' lists of other bands online?
12. What's the difference between NTSC and PAL videos? Aren't they both the VHS format?
13. Is there any way you can convert fron NTSC to PAL, and vice versa?
14. Where can I find bootleg CD's?
15. What bootleg CDs are available?
16. What's the oldest available recording?
17. What are some of the best bootlegs to get?
18. What are some of the worst bootlegs to get?
19. How can I find out what the set lists were for different shows?
20. If the set list stays the same night after night on any given tour, why bother collecting as many tapes as you can?
21. What's the difference between SB and AUD recordings? Pro-Shot and AUD?
22. What cities/venues allow audio taping? Video taping and still photography?
23. What are the UnComps?
24. What are the UnCD's?
25. How does a CD-R work? Where can I find out more information on burning and using CD-Rs and CD-RWs?
26. Is there any software for making CD/DVD liners and labels?
27. Where can I learn more about Van Halen?

1. What exactly is DVD-R/CD-R/tape trading?
It is the act of exchanging recorded media of artists' music concerts and unreleased material between two fans. The term "trading" must be stressed; NO exchange of money is done. When the two fans set up a deal, an equal amount of time and resources should be put in on both sides. If one trader demands money for the deal (for whatever excuse; postage, the cost of discs, etc.), then technically the transaction is no longer a "trade." (See Question 6.)
2. What's the difference between selling/purchasing boots and trading them? Are both illegal?
This is definitely the question that causes the most controversy, especially from a legal point of view. To make this matter simpler, let's define a few terms:

Pirating is the re-recording or the resale of something that's available legitimately elsewhere. Let's say someone buys a copy of the Live Without a Net video. If he/she decides to dub DVD copies of it, repackage it and sell them to make a profit, it's pirating. Familiar with the "FBI warning" at the beginning of every pre-recorded DVD and VHS cassette (well, if you're an American)? That's what they're trying to guard against. This also applies to CD's and audio tapes as well.
When you get right down to it, this is what the recording industry is most concerned about, because pirating is where the profits are lost for them.
Bootlegging (recordings, not alcohol ;-)) is the recording and sale of something that's not available anywhere else. Basically, when a fan attends a concert, captures the artist's performance, and gives the tape (whether it be standard cassette or DAT) to a company where they turn it into a CD to sell for a profit, that's bootlegging.
CD-R/Tape Trading, as described above, is where people trade copies of previously unavailable band performances, and no one makes a monetary profit.

It's obvious that a pirate recording is illegal, no matter how you slice it. Bootlegs on the other hand, are nestled in that "gray" area lying between right and wrong. It's true that bootleggers make a hideously large amount of money off of an unauthorized CD, and rip the fans off. That's wrong. But are the artists robbed of royalties from this type of bootleg? No, because they wouldn't have made money from a recording they didn't even release. Bands and record labels use the "robbing of royalties" as an excuse for not being represented at their "best."

Some artists, however, allow the taping of concerts for the fans' personal use, while shunning the sale of the same recordings on bootleg CD's that sometimes run $30-40. Their motives range from trying to "protect" the fans from the astronomical prices bootleggers charge for their wares, to the common "they're stealing our royalties" line.

Tape trading for personal use is perfectly legal. It is each of our personal responsibilities to make sure that we stay within the legal boundaries when trading. Of course, a lot of you will sell and buy CD's and CD-R's anyway; fine, go ahead, but it's something this website cannot advocate.

Another important note: The terms "boots" or "bootlegs" are sometimes used within this FAQ to mean a legally acquired tape or recording. The context in which it's employed will determine what it is meant by it. You're intelligent people, so I don't think an explanation is necessary every instance they're used, okay? ;-)
3. I'm a newbie. How can I start a collection when I have nothing to trade?
Many experienced traders will record one CD-R/DVD-R for every two blank CD-Rs/DVD-Rs the newbie sends in return. The first disc acts as a "replacement" for the one sent to the newbie, while the second one is considered to be the "payment" for the service done. The beginner collector benefits from this by getting a "new" recording of their favorite band. This is good for the veteran trader, because with every deal made, he gets an extra tape (any trader can tell you they need all the blank discs they can get).

The newbie should investigate the experienced trader before contacting him in order to find out if he's willing or not to trade for blanks. Some folks have very little spare time on their hands, and will invest that time only if they're getting a recorded concert back (instead of just blanks) that they want desperately. Respect their decision to operate like that.

I've run into a few guys who would only trade with me if I send them three blanks to their one tape. If you run into the same situation as this, and you can't find the tape somewhere else, then go for it. Otherwise, look for someone who's more lenient. If a trader wants more than three discs for your one, avoid them altogether.

One other point: if you're a newbie, never, I mean NEVER buy bootleg videos off of eBay or one of those online video boot "stores". The sale of bootlegs is illegal, plus it is far more expensive to acquire unreleased recordings this way. Instead, contact a trader and set up an even exchange to get a copy of what you're looking for. Don't worry; there are plenty of collectors out there who will gladly help you get started. For more info, go to the Help For Newbies page.
4. Can I trade DAT's, VHS videos, etc. be traded just like CD-Rs and DVD-Rs?
Absolutely. The details of the trade are up to the individuals. But just like with regular audio CD-Rs, if the deal sounds too unfair, skip it.
5. Can I trade audio CD-Rs for DVD-Rs, and vice versa?
Most people are willing to do this. Generally one DVD or VHS video tape is "equal" to two CDs or audio tapes. When you introduce blanks into the equation, the blanks are usually "worth" half of what recorded tapes are (e.g., four blank audios for one recorded video, etc.).
6. Who should pay for shipping in a deal?
On both 1:1 and 2:1 deals, it is general practice for each trader to pay for their own shipping when mailing tapes. If the other guy wants you to pay for him sending you tapes, avoid this guy like the plague -- unless he's the ONLY source for a rare tape you want. On 2:1's, the extra tape should be enough "payment", so to speak.

Another practice that has gained popularity in the past few years is called a B+P. Short for Blanks and Postage, a B+P is where trader #1 will sent the particular number of discs he wants recorded by trader#2, along with the exact postage and envelope required to ship the discs from trader #2 back to trader #1. This works great if both traders live in teh same country.
7. What's the best way to package and mail CD-Rs/tapes?
If you're sending less than six tapes, my suggestion would be to use padded envelopes. You can find them anywhere -- Wal-Mart, K-Mart, office supply centers, etc.. More than six should be sent in a box with something like crumpled-up newspaper or styrofoam packing "peanuts" as padding around the cassettes.
Unless otherwise requested by the trader you're doing the deal with, send the cassettes in the plastic cases as added "protection" against breakage.
8. What are CD-R/DVD-R trees? What are Vines? What are Weeds? How can I join them?
See the CD-R/DVD-R/Tape Trees, Vines, and Weeds: An Explanation page.
9. How do I meet other traders? How can I view their boot lists?
The largest VH traders list page can be found at http://www.vhtrading.com/forums/tradelists.php. This particular list contains all sites filled in by VH Trade Forums members. You can also look at the ,a href='http://www.vhtrading.com/traders.php">Trade List Hosting, which contains sites hosted on the VHTrading server. If you're still wishing to trade and an individual does not have a website, simply e-mail or private message (PM) them to send you their list.
10. How can I let others know about my list?
By putting up your own entry in the Trade profiles. Simply register on the forums (if you haven't already), and obtain your password through an e-mail automatically sent to you, and post away. Good, "non-spamlike" advertisements for your trade list webpage are welcome on the forums.
11. Are there traders' lists of other bands online?
Yes. Excellent sites such as the Tape Trader Network and pauserecord.com have extensive databases available that list thousands of traders for hundreds of bands. Much like this site, you can obtain e-mail addresses and trade list URLs for each contact. See Trader Links for more details.
12. What's the difference between NTSC and PAL videos? Aren't they both the VHS format?
Although they are both "VHS," the two are in fact incompatible with each other. The National Television Standards Commission in the U.S. and its PAL-producing European equivalent developed video standards differently for their respective regions of the globe. In addition to NTSC and PAL (which stands for Phased Alternating Line), other VHS "formats" are PAL - M/N, SECAM, and MESECAM.
Here's a complete list of the formats and the countries that use them:


NTSC: Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, Canada, Japan, Mexico, Peru, Philippines,
Taiwan, Trinidad, United States of America, Venezuela.

PAL: Albania, Australia, Austria, Azores, Bahrain, Belgium, Canary Islands, China, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Faroe Islands, Finland, Gambia, Germany, Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Kenya, Luxembourg, Madeira, Malaysia, Malta, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Paraguay, Portugal, Romania, Seychelles, Singapore, Slovakia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland), Uruguay, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe.

PAL-M/N: Argentina, Brazil.

SECAM: Bulgaria, Colombia, Czech Republic, Egypt, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iran, Jamaica, Madagascar, Monaco, Morocco, Poland, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Slovakia, Tahiti, Tunisia.

MESECAM: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Benin, Botswana, Bulgaria, Burundi, Central African Republic, Chad, Congo, Equatorial Guinea, French Guyana, French Polynesia Reunion, Futuna, Gabon, Georgia, Iran, Iraq, Ivory Coast, Kazakhstan, Kyraystan, Latvia, Lebanon, Lithuging, Madagascar, Mali, Martinique, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mayotte, Moldavia, Mongolia, Morocco, New Caledonia, Niger, Russia, Senegal, St. Pierre Miquelon, Tahiti, Tajikistan, Togo, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Wallis, Zaire.

13. Is there any way you can convert from NTSC to PAL, and vice-versa?
If you really "have" to do this, my best answer would be to go with a video conversion service, such as Dandy Innovations, Video Conversion, or S &amp W Video Conversions. I have never dealt with these companies personally, so I can't tell you off-hand what their service is like, pricing, etc..

Whatever you do, don't go bugging traders overseas if they can convert formats for you. Virtually all traders have no access to the video equipment necessary to do this.

My advice, honestly, would be to trade videos only to those in your geographic area of the world. Most known VH vids are available in both NTSC and PAL. For instance, the highly sought-out Australian Rage TV Special featuring VH videos can be obtained in North America in NTSC format, even though Australia uses the PAL format.
14. Where can I find bootleg CD's?
Unfortunately, I cannot name any specific record shops or online stores at the moment. The only advice I can give you is to look around at local record shops in your town. I'm not talking about the big chain stores here; the "mom and pop" ones are more likely to possess these discs. Depending on where you live, you may have to hunt around a bit before finding any.

The audio and video lists on this site simply show what's in circulation -- nothing more. They are "not for sale" through this site, so don't e-mail me asking how to purchase these.

Please do not e-mail me asking me to tell you specifically where to find these CDs, DVDs, VCDs, or cassettes.
15. What bootleg CDs are available?
Take a look at the Van Halen Bootleg Discography, created and maintained by Ron Higgins. (Please don't ask Ron about purchasing any of these -- it's simply just a list.)
16. What's the oldest available recording?
It would have to be the recordings from Cherokee Studios from 1973 (although some sources say 1974). The boot Demo Daze contains three tracks from those sessions and the boot Magic Mountain contains a probable additional fourth track. Supposedly Mark Stone (Michael Anthony's predecessor) handled the bass guitar duties. (See the Cherokee Studios entry on the Demos and Studio Outtakes page for more info.) Also from Demo Daze are four studio demos dating somewhere around January 1976. (See the Unknown 1976 Demos entry on the Demos and Studio Outtakes page for more info.)

When it comes to live shows, the Gazzari's recording from 1974, as heard on the Gazzari's 1974 CD-R, is the earliest. It is not known what time of the year this tape was from (Van Halen played dozens of gigs at Gazzari's from April 1974 to October 1976), so it is possible that this goes back even further than the Cherokee Studios demos.
17. What are some of the best bootlegs to get?
In my opinion, the "Zero" Gene Simmons demo is the best sounding new boot currently floating around out there. In addition to this, there is a "must-read" thread on the VH Trade Forums that covers this topic very well, located here: http://www.vhtrading.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4483.

For historical significance, the 12/31/77 show at the Whiskey-a-Go-Go and the US Festival concert on 5/29/83 are ones to get.

There are plenty of other gems out there with great sound and high-energy performances. It's ultimately up to you to find out which ones you like personally and become your favorites.
18. What are some of the worst bootlegs to get?
There's truckload of shitty sounding boots floating around -- much too numerous to list. Just ask the traders you're dealing with what quality the discs and tapes are.

As far as set lists go, the 1995 Balance Tour is generally regarded as having the worst in Van Halen's history. But there do exist some fantastic sounding recordings from that year.

A few bootlegs are floating around that claim to have Van Halen material, but actually don't. Both Eddie Van Halen: Guitar Man and 1984 Previous Night contain what is boasted to be studio cuts of Ed playing unaccompanied snippets of his most famous solos, yet are tracks actually taken from an instructional tape played by guitarist Kurt Mitchell.
19. How can I find out what the set lists were for different shows?
Although the songs can very slightly from night to night, the band has primarily stuck to rigid set lists each tour. Here are the links to view what the band has played each year in the different eras:

The David Lee Roth Era
The Sammy Hagar Era
The Gary Cherone Era
20. If the set list stays the same night after night on any given tour, why bother collecting as many tapes as you can?
This may sound a bit silly to the more experienced collector, but it is worth answering.

It can best be summed up by asking another query: why do many fans go to so many concerts to see their favorite group, especially on the same tour? Because they want to experience the excitement over and over again. And with multiple tapes, this elation can be obtained (to a lesser degree, of course).
21. What's the difference between SB and AUD recordings? Pro-Shot and AUD?
SB - Soundboard recording. It has very little audience noise, and gives a better aural representation of the artist. These tapes were usually recorded professionally, but aren't necessarily perfect in quality all of the time, depending on the generation of the cassette.

AUD - Audience tape. Pretty self-explanatory. If it's an audio, it's likely to have poorer sound than a soundboard, and more noticable audience noise present. If it's a video, it's done on a camcorder. Even though you should expect a lot of nosebleed-section views and shaky camera work, some "homemade" vids aren't half-bad.

Pro-Shot - A professionally made video with multiple cameras and great close-ups. Usually done for TV or film.
22. What cities/venues allow audio taping? Video taping? Still photography?
For the time being I probably won't be able to finish this answer. Anyone care to help out and do some research? E-mail privately if you can.
23. What are the UnComps?
These tapes were a Van Halen Mailing List project done in 1995. The goal was to gather the best VH live and unreleased studio material available at the time. The result was an incredible 11-cassette compilation that was distributed between members of the VHML.
24. What are the UnCD's?
Also entitled Looney Tunes Merrie Melodies: The UnReleased, this 4-CD set was taken from remastered songs that were available on the UnComps. 500 copies of this set were produced and were sold for $22.50 to VHML members. Today, some bootleggers can command $120-150 for this ultra-rare compilation.
25. How does a CD-R work? Where can I find out more information on burning and using CD-Rs and CD-RWs?
A good series of CD/CD-R articles can be found at: http://www.octave.com/en/library.htm. Also take a look at http://www.cdrinfo.com/.
26. Is there any software for making CD/DVD liners and labels?
Take a look at this thread to see what people are recommending.
27. Where can I learn more about Van Halen?
WEB SITES
Go to the VH FAQ. Written and compiled by Jon Schell, and now maintained by myself;-), it contains just about every known general fact about the band.

The Van Halen News Desk is one of the best fan sites of its kind, supplying the lowdown on VH's current happenings. Includes the latest on Sammy Hagar, David Lee Roth, and Gary Cherone, too.

Also visit the Official Van Halen Website. A dizzying array of tidbits can be found, including news, album and single stats, gigs and tour info, lyrics, multimedia clips, and much, much more.
MAGAZINES
Dedicated solely to Van Halen, an unofficial print publication called The Inside was published quarterly, and contained in-depth interviews, rare photographs, and other goodies spanning all three eras.

Although it's no longer publishing new issues, you can find back copies of The Inside on the web at http://www.vanhalenstore.com, or snail mail them at:
The Inside
1739 East Broadway Rd.
Suite 10
Tempe, AZ 85282

BOOKS
The Van Halen Encyclopedia is what it says: a massive, encyclopedic accumulation of knowledge about the band. Perhaps only The Beatles are the only other band in rock history that have been written about in this depth -- and that's in several books. The VHE is the culmination of years of research about the band by author C.J. Chilvers, Official VH Website webmaster Brad Starks, and dozens of contributors. You'll have to read it for yourself to get a grasp of its scope. It's an absolute A+ in my opinion. No other VH book ever written has even come close. To order it, or to get more info, go to http://www.vanhalenencyclopedia.com.

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